416's vs. 515's

[Carl Bill]

And any additional insight on the ferrite 515 vs the ferrite 416 is appreciated. I have the Alnico 416's in teh 19's and would like to know if the ferrite 461 or 5151 would be any better.

I understand thet the Alnico's can de-magnitize over time. Mine are 27 years old. Should I consider ferrite's or re-mag the Alnico's?

Also, does re-mag require a recone? Or is this a question for Bill at GPA?

[GM]

Greets!

IMO, yes, for the reasons I stated. Yes, you use EQ to shape the response. Basically you're doing electrically what the 416 does through mass loading and why I find it very interesting you consider the 416 the more transparent of the two, which is the exact opposite trait of what the physics of their construction implies.

Not that the 416 is a slouch in this regard, just that by design it's not intended to compete sonically with their top of the line driver, the 515, much less tonally outperform it. The only thing I can figure is that due to our hearing curve, the more tonally balanced 416 system just sounds more 'right' to you than the rising response 515 system. You have to compare apples n' apples though, so flatten the 515 system to match, then compare.

I use a 500 Hz XO also, and back when I did my comparison I had no trouble hearing what I consider the 515's 'tighter' performance, and while I've never used a >1 kHz XO, it's HF response just sounds so much better to me that it seems the 'no-brainer' choice for me if I were to use an 811/N1200 XO, though for someone who prefers a really 'laid back' presentation, the 416 is a better choice. Regardless, I've never really cared for the slightly boomy (some say 'punchy') 'West Coast' sound, so even if I were to use the 416 I would tune it somewhat lower to 'tighten' it up.

As always though, YMMV.

GM

[homme_de_terre]

Carl,

as for decoding of TLAs, here's a great resource.
Acronymfinder

Check it out.
Manfred

[RonSSS]

The earlier 515 might not fit in the model 19 cabinet anyway. But the 515-8G will. The 19 uses the 416's with the 16" frame.

Tomorrow I will have my 416-8C's back, and I'll be able to compare the differences between them and the 416-8B's in my 19's.

Specs

416-8B____QTS___.32____Fs____25.1Hz
416-8C____QTS___.25____Fs____23.9Hz
515B______QTS___.17____Fs____24.7Hz
515-8G____QTS___.27____Fs____37.0Hz

Rather different animals from one to another I'd say.

I have never heard any of the 515's. Might be worth a look.....and more than a few hundred dollars.

Ron

[Carl Bill]

Thanks for the info.

I already have the 416B's in teh 19's now. I also have 2 pair of the 416C's that I could try in one of the 19's and A/B them. One of the 416C's needs to be reconned, and if the motor structure is the same as the 515 ferrite's I would consider having this one reconned as a 515. I would do that if it is the best choice for either the Model 19 or the 828C cabinets.

Assuming that the Alnico's are 27 years old, if they need to be remagnitized, I could be better off using the 416C's and sell off the 416B's on ebay. Then buy more ferrite's and recone as 515's.

Not as complicated as it seems, but now that I am getting situated with a work space that allows me to drag all of the old Altec stuff out and start getting it all back into working order, I may as well do it right the first time!

I may be selling off several mis-matched parts as soon as I determine whitch way to go. May even sell off several of the passive crossovers.

[RonSSS]

Bill at GPA told me matter of fact that re-magnetizing is only necessary if the driver has been abused (lots of power for a long time) or dropped.
Just a thought.
Ron

[Russellc]

Hello GM,
Now you have really got me wondering. Guess I'll listen closely to several selected cuts a few more days and then switch to the 515s for a re eval, but I can definatelysay that the bass is deeper and "seems" tighter with the 416 8c than the 515 8G in my setup, and of course, to my ears. My current recollection is the 416 is tighter and somewhat more "hi fi" than the 515, which strikes me as more lush
and well, for lack of a better word, exhibits more "majesty". with the standard 7 or 8 inch port width, male voices are "boomier" with my 515 than the 416. they have been reconed by Bill when I bought them, with what appeared to be original cones, I'm sure they are not, but they had that original greyish color and original altec numbers. One got cat scratched and I sent it back and it came back with a slightly different cone, with a number begining with "GPA" which was more "blackish" in color. It plays fine, but things like that bother the heck out of me. Oh well, I,ve got some listening to do!

Russellc

[Russellc]

Carl Bill,
I haven't owned any alnico woofers, only the 416 8c and the 515 8g. As to recone, unless Bill says otherwise, I would recone with its intended cone. As to their motors, the 515 8G has a much larger magnet on it and is heavy compared to the 416 8c, which ( unlike your
416 8b) is also ferrite. The Alnico drivers you have seem to have more collectibility than the ferrite. If you are like me, quit kidding yourself, you'll keep it all! Isn't it great fun driving yourself nuts with all this?

Russellc

[Russellc]

Carl Bill,
I haven't owned any alnico woofers, only the 416 8c and the 515 8g. As to recone, unless Bill says otherwise, I would recone with its intended cone. As to their motors, the 515 8G has a much larger magnet on it and is heavy compared to the 416 8c, which ( unlike your
416 8b) is also ferrite. The Alnico drivers you have seem to have more collectibility than the ferrite. If you are like me, quit kidding yourself, you'll keep it all! Isn't it great fun driving yourself nuts with all this?

Russellc

[GM]

> And any additional insight on the ferrite 515 vs the ferrite 416 is appreciated. I have the Alnico 416's in teh 19's and would like to know if the ferrite 461 or 5151 would be any better.

I understand thet the Alnico's can de-magnitize over time. Mine are 27 years old. Should I consider ferrite's or re-mag the Alnico's?

Also, does re-mag require a recone? Or is this a question for Bill at GPA?

=====

Greets!

I've already told you what little I know about their differences and my opinion about mixing n' matching recone kits, but GPA can provide any details you want as I imagine they've done every combination possible trying to please customers.

Yes, they can de-mag over time, but short of dropping them, you're not likely to drive them hard enough in a HIFI app to audibly de-mag them. The magnetizer I use to have access to didn't require reconing, but depends on the type they have, so ask them if Todd or ? don't respond.

As I already stated, IMO if you use tubes or SS with series resistance or current controlled amp then stick with AlNiCo, if SS only then ferrite since with the exception of the 515E they typically have a higher Qts.

GM